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Ziggy, you get an A+ for your Free Keene cult article
Ziggy,
I just finished reading you article about the Free Keene people. You expressed my sentiments exactly. At first I hesitated to mention it on Gard's site. I have the highest regard for Gard (sounds funny) and the way he discusses issues in a serious and respectful manner. As a anarchist who is tolerant of non-anarchist libertarians, I get annoyed at the self-righteous intolerant anarchists in "our" movement. (I even hate putting our in quotes because if I don't some anarchist will object to plural pronouns). I don't expect anybody to compromise their beliefs but I do think there is a spectrum of thought that can be considered libertarian. There are limits, though. If someone advocates dropping bombs on innocent people, I can never consider them a fellow traveler. But if someone thinks that a local gov't should run the courts and roads, I'm not going to throw them under the bus or denounce them as a budding Hitler or Stalin.
As I've posted elsewhere, I'm dubious about the Civil Disobedience that takes place on public property. It's seems more about offending others and showing off then it does about protesting oppressive laws. I stopped listening to FTL ages ago because of its lack of seriousness at times, its cultishness at other times and the host's intolerance while at the same time denouncing "bigots".
__________________
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it
Learned Hand
In the past men created witches: now they create mental patients.
Thomas Szasz
Relinquish liberty for the purposes of defense in an emergency?
Why? It would seem that in an emergency, of all times, one needs
his greatest strength. So if liberty is strength and slavery is weakness,
liberty is a necessity rather than a luxury, and we can ill afford
to be without it—least of all during an emergency.
F.A. Harper
the rant that was published on FSP blog isn't something I was particularly proud of because it was purely a rant & I should of declined Denis's offer to repost it from the circular email I sent out.
However since then I've published two articles on Free Keene which I felt were far better
http://www.the-bastard.com/index.php?section=21&page=3069
http://www.the-bastard.com/index.php?section=21&page=3178
To be honest I'm done with writing about the antics Ian Freeman & cohorts, simply because there are more important things going on in the world.
its funny that you mention intolerancebecause i did menti on the other day to gard that Ian was utterly closed minded towards the geolibertarian perspective but that Mark Edge understood at least in this country there is plenty of historical justification & its something Gard has also recognised even if he might not agree with it.
I had also read your other two articles. So I guess I should have included them in my A+. I appreciate many CD people but I find many of the Keene actions to be nothing more than antics. My personal philosophy is that you shouldn't do something on public property if that same property had been privately owned. For example, drinking in the park after hours is different to me than drinking at midday when parents might have their children there. I guess I'm just an anarchists who recognizes socials norms and mores and don't think they are the source of oppression.
I take it you both heard what happened on FTL yesterday.
I have Mark on my Facebook, so I sent him a message and let him know I agreed with his point of view. I really like Ian. Everytime I've called into FTL we've agreed on the discussion at hand. But, I myself have expierenced, on a small level, the "Free Stater" label.
I sent a message to a friend of mine that lives in Dover, NH and told her I was thinking of moving there. I sent her a link to the Free State Project website and she replied, "Oh. You're gonna be a Free Stater, huh?" I've known this friend a long time and even if I was going to be involved in all the civil disobedience, she would have still been my friend nonetheless. But, just a mention of FSP put an image of me and what my life would be like, to someone who should really know me better to know I'm not going to be throwing myself in front of police cars or going to a court house with a water bottle wrapped in a brown paper bag trying to instigate a reaction from a police officer. Not everyone who moves to NH wants that. It won't be enough to keep me from moving to NH, but it may be enough to keep me out of Keene.
--
Jackie Fiest
Jackie,
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Did your friend explain beyond the one sentence you cited?
To the original poster,
It's fine if you don't like FTL, but to call it "cultish"? Care to explain? Also, of whom are we intolerant besides racists?
130+ Reasons to Move to Keene : http://move.FreeKeene.com
Keene-area Activist Discussion Forum: http://forum.FreeKeene.com
I agree. I wouldn't call it cultish. Considering it is propogating a message that is not widely held, radical maybe, but not cultish.And they will take a call from people they don't agree with. Mark will often have a heart attack by the time it's over (aka Ralph from earlier this week), but they will do it.
And Ian, to answer your question, I asked her about so called, "Free Staters" and she replied that they are a group that's always doing, "shit they know is going to get them arrested". Since I'm not from the area I couldn't even tell you what she means by that, but I took it she didn't approve. Which, I find to be odd as she and her husband are Constitutionalists. I guess CD isn't for everyone. Some people embrace it, others prefer to run for office and make change from the inside. Some prefer to donate to things like the Civil Disobedience Evolution Fund. I guess it's a matter of perspective.
Ian how many friends of yours aren't anarchist, libertarian, conservative or as ainti government as yourself?
Ziggy,
Maybe this should be a new thread, but many anarchists believe that there's no such thing as a non-anarchist libertarian. These people would say that Mises, Jefferson, Locke, etc. are not libertarians. I think what it comes down to is that they view the Non-Aggression Principle as a religious fundamentalist views their holy book. Any deviation is considered heresy. The only problem for those anarchists is that they tend to be atheists or agnostics. Thus, they have no spiritual sanctions for violating the NAP. The only thing that they can offer is repelling agression with violence or ostracizing those who violate the NAP. In short, they state a moral principle (of which I agree) but strip it of any religious basis. To me, that just sounds like they are for liberty because it leads to good things.
Ziggy,
Maybe this should be a new thread, but many anarchists believe that there's no such thing as a non-anarchist libertarian. These people would say that Mises, Jefferson, Locke, etc. are not libertarians. I think what it comes down to is that they view the Non-Aggression Principle as a religious fundamentalist views their holy book. Any deviation is considered heresy.
This is something I’ve also picked up on & I happen to be an atheist
Your right many do display a very fundamentalist, black & white, dogmatic, literalist perspective.
I’ll admit I’ve met socialists who are also extremely dogmatic in how socialism should be implemented etc to achieve social justice. But the vast majority of socialists I happen to know are social democrats & they aren’t as dogmatic about how to achieve social justice.
I know plenty of social democrats who are prepared to value the good the free markets provides & don’t think people should be thrown in prison for smoking ganja in their own house. But to many a libertarian socialist or social democrat, its all the same because its about funding stuff by force.
I’ve known social democrat friends who will admit that people are forced to pay tax etc, but they belief the common good outweighs the use of that force. A friend of mine the other week put it perfectly when they said they didn’t have a problem with somebody smoking dope in their own house but they thought it sociopathic that libertarians weren’t prepared to pay tax which could help contribute to a disabled person getting a wheelchair etc. Its not only social democrats I know who’d express such an opinion, I know of at least one card carrying Tory who has expressed similar sentiments to me over the years.
Brits are known for compromise & diplomacy & well it’s served the people who live here well. I mean if we all took an entrenched fundamentalist position there’d be constant conflict & I for one don’t want that. I just believe taking a fundamentalist view creates conflict & that’s never good for anybody etc.
Obviously I do want there to be far less government coercion but I can’t ever see there being no government coercion.
I've read those 2 articles you wrote Ziggy, and I have to agree with you (and Lysander). I listened to that FTL where the paper cup was talked about for a segment. It was just so trivial and childish, and I failed to see how such an act would lead towards liberty or whatnot.
I'm assuming what you are talking about is whats around 1:30:00 to 1:40:00 (about) of the show on 9/15. Its incredibly maddening to me how much he clings to Free Keene. And if you disagree with him, you're wrong. I'm willing to say part of it is for radio drama/entertainment, but I don't believe it to be the only reason.
I'm also curious why Gard doesn't guest host anymore. It seems like months since he was on FTL.
I really don't feel the need to defend Ian as he can speak for himself, but surely you understand what it's like to be passionate about something. He's passionate about his CD and about Free Keene. I agree he can be a bit hard headed about his views, but I'm very much the same way so I can't fault him for that.
And I agree about Gard. I'd love to see (hear) more of him on FTL.
I'm also curious why Gard doesn't guest host anymore. It seems like months since he was on FTL.
Well he's been extremely busy trying to further his writing career (he's currently this side of the pond doing so) & I'd imagine he hasn't had time etc.