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Libertarians and the Patriot Movement
I see the libertarian movement and the patriot movement as natural allies. The patriot movement is not purely libertarian. But this has never stopped libertarians from forming alliances before. Subtracting out the provocateurs, they are an honest bunch. Infinitely more honest that the conservatives that so many libertarians suck up to. Probably, the biggest issue where we disagree is immigration. Libertarians generally favor open immigration while patriots favor restrictions. From their prospective, open borders is another aspect of the New World Order's drive to erase national governments and create a world government. Many libertarians dismiss any talk of a New World Order as a "conspiracy theory". I personally don't. I think it is obvious that there has been a concerted plan, a conspiracy if you will, over the last hundred years to create a world government. Where I differ from the patriots is in my contention that open immigration is not a violation of national sovereignty. (I don't believe in national sovereignty, but they do). But I do agree that immigration is being used to take away our liberties. The chaos at the border along with a contracting economy is pitting people against each other who shouldn't be enemies. From this chaos, further restrictions on our liberty are being proposed.
In summary, I think it is a mistake to disrespect and write off the patriot movement because of some political and cultural differences. I recently heard a FTL show deriding the militia movement from the 90's. You may not have agreed with the tactics and motivations of the militias but they were acting within their rights. We should not join the Establishment chorus in ridiculing them. This does not mean compromising any of our principles. Even if we reject the one world conspiracy theory, we have to be clear that we do not support world government and we at least want to bind down the Federal Gov't by the Constitution. Obviously, many of us, including myself, would like to go further.
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Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it
Learned Hand
In the past men created witches: now they create mental patients.
Thomas Szasz
Relinquish liberty for the purposes of defense in an emergency?
Why? It would seem that in an emergency, of all times, one needs
his greatest strength. So if liberty is strength and slavery is weakness,
liberty is a necessity rather than a luxury, and we can ill afford
to be without it—least of all during an emergency.
F.A. Harper
It would be nice if we could convince them that the people we should fear are not brown immigrants, but the politicians in Washington. Recently, my buddy, who is a hard core libertarian, responded to an "immigrants are ciminals and here are the stats to back it up" e-mail that a local Tea Party friend sent to his e-mail list. The Tea Party guy at least admitted that my buddy made some really good, well thought out points and that it was something to consider.
I agree with your sentiment. Many of the folks who I work with locally are Tea Party types. Where we disagree is that they think that there is such a thing as "effective" government. That means that they think the government should be doing the things that they would like it to do. Much like Republicans and Democrats, the philosophical and (im)moral foundations of government are ignored and their political theory is based purely on utilitarianism. Also, they tend to support the military and law enforcement to a fault.
However, one thing I have found is that these folks, at least the ones I deal with, are open to new ideas. Many of them are still new to the ideas of liberty; they tend to be recovering Conservatives. This is probably not true at a national level or a "leadership" level as you are dealing with folks who want to push their own agenda onto the rest. But I think that at a local, grassroots level, Tea Party activists are pretty fertile soil.
The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State, including classical Aristotelian and Thomist philosophers, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State.--Murray N. Rothbard
As usual, I agree with your analysis. I do, however, like to distinguish between the Tea Party Movement and the Patriot Movement although I'm sure there is some overlap. The Patriot Movement is already awake. They understand the problem, they know the offical conservative "opposition" is part of the problem and they see the big picture. They are farther along on the continuum towards full liberty. The Tea Partiers are more of a conglomeration of libertarians, traditional (big-government) conservatives, anti-Obama (bigger government) neoconservatives and honest people who have at least figured out that something's wrong. As you observed, most of these people are honest and are therefore open to new ideas. I am hesitant to ascribe racists motives to those who oppose "illegal" immigration from Mexico. That's what the statist media does. I am sure there are some racists opponents of immigration but I don't know how to quantify it. Other possible motives are xenophobia, a "law and order" mentality or faulty economic views.
One of my favorite quotes of Ludwig von Mises which applies to the conservative movement in general and the Tea Partiers in particular is the following:
"Even the opponents of Socialism are dominated by socialist ideas."
My bad. Yes, I think you are correct; most of the animosity directed towards immigrants isn't based on racism, but either on fallacious economic reasoning--driving down wages, etc--or "they are breaking our laws". While I tend not to go down the rabbit holes that the conspiracists do (especially the more outlandish theories), you can see where they are coming from as far as the dangers of concentrated power, i.e world government.
<quote>I see the libertarian movement and the patriot movement as natural allies</quote>
I don't
Sure those in the so called 'Patriot movement' might like guns 7 hate taxes, but they also tend to be redneck trailer tras, who are typically racist, homophobic & generally bigoted, who subscribe to the conspiracy theories of paranoid kkoks such as Alex Jones peddles; they're insecure individuals who hide behind a flag & have a fetish for land. All in all I finding puzzling why libertarians would allign themselves with people who hold such illiberal views.
<quote>I see the libertarian movement and the patriot movement as natural allies</quote>
I don't
Sure those in the so called 'Patriot movement' might like guns 7 hate taxes, but they also tend to be redneck trailer tras, who are typically racist, homophobic & generally bigoted, who subscribe to the conspiracy theories of paranoid kkoks such as Alex Jones peddles; they're insecure individuals who hide behind a flag & have a fetish for land. All in all I finding puzzling why libertarians would allign themselves with people who hold such illiberal views.
While people like that do exist, I believe they are in the minority. There are also people like that in the general population. Your description of the "Patriot movement" is pretty much how the illiberal "liberal" media in the US portrays these people. I remember during the early 90's, how the media ridiculed and lied about the militia movement. I have and still listen to a fair amount of patriot radio. I really don't hear too much of what you are describing.
I also don't like the term homophobic. All too often, it lumps people who have religious objections to homosexuality in with the cowardly gay bashers. The latter group just flat out hates gays.
I also don't like the term homophobic. All too often, it lumps people who have religious objections to homosexuality in with the cowardly gay bashers. The latter group just flat out hates gays.
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There is NO EXCUSE religious or otherwise for homophobia
What happens to be written in some stupid book should never be used as an excuse for hatred towards those who essentially are doing no harm.
If you think because some religious book says something & that something is true, then you’re ignorant & bigoted, oh & not to mention insecure & weak because that is what an awful lot of religious belief is founded upon.
Zig,
I am a Deist. I don't follow any book. I happen to not subscribe to the belief that gays and lesbians are sinful or evil. However, I recognize that there are other people who do. And while I may not approve of their beliefs, I support their right to have them. I also believe that some religious people really and truly hate the sin and love the sinner. Unfortunately, many people hate homosexuals and hide behind their religion to justify it. I'd rather have people be upfront with their prejudice. What I also object to is how, in American society, certain forms of bigotry are more acceptable than others. I'm tolerant of all non-violent bigots.
P.S. I still haven't listen to the Doctor Who podcast but I will get around to it. There is so much libertarian material out there now, that I can't keep up!
I have and still listen to a fair amount of patriot radio. I really don't hear too much of what you are describing.
Lysander, any URLs you can share?
If you don't already follow http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/ you might want to check it out.
http://gcnlive.com/programs/whatReallyHappened/
http://www.thepowerhour.com/
http://www.katherinealbrecht.com/
Normal 0 false false false EN-GB X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 You don’t have to listen to Alex Jones for too long to realise that there’s a huge philosophic economic difference between libertarians & so called patriots & that is libertarians believe in free trade the so called patriot movement tends to be against economic globalization.
Yes. Many patriot types are against free trade. But there is a good explanation for it. What goes under the name of free trade isn't really free trade. NAFTA and the WTO were government managed trade sold under the guise of free trade. All patriot types correctly opposed these "free trade" agreements because they viewed them as building blocks towards supranational or world government. Unfortunately, many patriots learned the wrong lesson and concluded that free trade itself was a bad idea. They definitely need to be educated in this area.