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One law at least I agree with
Murder of a human being born or unborn is murder
Abortion Rights Are Not Human Rights Because Abortion Rights Is The Right To Murder
Here, I must disagree. You may speak of the rights of the unborn child, but what of the mother? Should she be burdened with a child she has no desire to raise? That sounds like a violation of individual rights to me.
Raising children is hard; most are not up to the task. It's even harder to raise a disabled child. Do you think a parent, who is forced to raise a child she doesn't want, is going raise the child properly? Treat them well? Consider how the child will be scarred for life, being raised by unwilling (possibly abusive and/or neglectful) parents.
Part of libertarianism is setting the individual free and making sure all relations are voluntarily undertaken; forcing a mother to carry to term harms both goals. I don't like abortion either, but the best way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is through sex education and access to contraceptives; as well as a culture amenable to them. After birth, adoption is the best option. However, relying on that exclusively overburdens the adoption system; then children suffer because there aren't enough willing parents to adopt them.
I speak as someone with a mild disability (Asperger's) with an autistic brother (low functioning). I'm lucky to have parents who were willing and able to raise me; many aren't. Not having been born would've been a mercy to them.
Here, I must disagree. You may I speak as someone with a mild disability (Asperger's) with an autistic brother (low functioning). I'm lucky to have parents who were willing and able to raise me; many aren't. Not having been born would've been a mercy to them.
I to have Aspergers as well as Cerebral Palsy
Back in the early 70s they couldn't detect cp in unborn children & so I was given the chance of life & though yeah life can be pretty shitty I'm glad to be alive & have no less quality of life then say an average able bodied individual.
Doctors now can detect cp in unborn children & guess what the doctors advice is with unborn children they detect might be disabled.
it sickens me
Ziggy, I would also have to disagree with you - but you raise an interesting couple of questions at the heart of this debate:
When does life begin?
When does choice begin?
Personally, I think life begins at birth, not before it. I think it's very difficult to establish anything before birth as life, as it's difficult to know when to stop 'going back.' Eventually, you're going to end up joining the nuns for a hearty rendition of 'Every sperm is sacred.'
I might be a livelong supporter of Celtic F.C but I'm not a Catholic & therefore I don't accept the Catholic doctrine on procreation, I've no problem with contraception & in fact I'm very critical of the Catholic Church for dissuading people in Africa from using contraception & therefore helping the spread of AIDS, I've only got a problem when egg fertilizes with sperm, because that's when life begins.
What about choice, then? When does choice begin, for you?
As in, is the right to life for the fertilised egg, a choice of the parent or the fertilised egg?
I am pro-life because, in my mind, without life you can make no choices. That being said, if a woman chooses to fertilize her eggs, it does not mean that she must supply the resultant embryo with free real estate in her uterine lining. Contraception is clearly a property rights issue. If a woman owns her body, then she must be allowed to decide whether or not she is going to let some alien being (even if conceived within her own body, her body does consider it a foreign pathogen, and her immune system will attack if allowed) to take up residence inside her own womb.
The undertaking of birthing a child has significant risks to a mother. It can be excruciatingly painful, it has long lasting and detrimental health effects on mothers. Osteoporosis, tooth decay and scarring (i.e. stretch marks, vaginal tears) are very common. However, you must consider hemorrhagic injuries to the uterus, cervix, and vagina. Prolapses of the Uterus and Cervix, as well as vascular stagnation of the pelvic region are conditions which can result in intractable pain, and are possible ramifications of the birthing experience which ought to be considered by females of childbearing age.
Also to be considered is fetal demise. Many women establish emotional attachment to the life which is growing inside of their bodies. Many times these life forms, for whatever reason, terminate their existence while residing in a woman's womb. In order to avoid septicemia, an involuntary response of the host is initiated, where the dead occupant of the woman's womb is spontaneously evicted from the female (in my experience this has been against the will of the mother). As a husband, I have witnessed this on two occasions. Several of my coworkers have experienced a miscarriage (I hate that term, as it implicates that the mother is at fault).
This is probably one of the most contentious issues in the modern world. I will not judge a woman for surgical abortion, just as I would not judge a woman for a "spontaneous abortion." It is not my place in the world to judge people that engage in the eviction of a womb squatter. Why the state sometimes interferes on behalf of adverse possessors of uterine real estate is not rational to me.
Now, if it became known to me that a woman was having surgical abortions as a method of habitual contraception, I may (and likely would) engage in some sort of avoidance behavior. If I could not avoid contact with this person, I would do my best to let her know that I find her actions to be offensive, and that I wish to avoid all future contact with her.
This concludes my thoughts on this matter, for now.
An excellent post, Furb.
Well an unborn child has no choice its a defenceless being
So, in your eyes Zig, legislation is required to protect the unborn child/ fertlised egg, as a defenceless being?
Well do you disagree with there being legislation against murder?
I wouldn't call abortion 'murder' as I believe life begins at birth.
As for legislation, I believe that it, as a whole, has proven to be ineffective, immoral, counter-productive and at odds with a free society.
For real, tangible change to happen, regarding unwanted pregancies, I would echo Patient Liberty's thoughts on the matter - education and wider availability of contraceptives (without prescription) would be much more productive and much more conducive to voluntary, and therefore longer lasting, change than prohibitive legislation.
What you think its okay if I pop over to Ulster & murder your girlfriend?
I wasn't talking about about legislation against abortion
Ziggy, I don't appreciate that statement. I feel it is personally offensive, disrespectful and out of line. Not to mention cheap.
If you keep talking like that, I'll no longer engage with you in convsersation.
In answer to your question, I feel that there would be other more efffective ways to prevent murder than legislation.
The police (as guided by legislation) are ineffective at dealing with threat - they are, generally, only interested in a crime which has already taken place.
I mean I didn't realise I was being personal
All this what'spersonal & not personal stuff fries my autistic brain
Me thinks I should bow out of debate
Well obviously there are more ways to prevent murder (like allowing people to arm themselves) however murder does happen & will happen, therefore I'd prefer to have murderers behind bars then try any anarcho fruit loop idea about trying social ostracism because believe me it wouldn't work on nutcases.
I agree with you that abortion is murder. I am also an anarchist. So I don't really know how the unborn will be protected in a stateless society. Ostracism should be reserved for people with cultural differences, not criminals. Practically, it would be very difficult to enforce laws against abortion but that doesn't mean that there isn't a moral case for those laws.
As an aside, I disagree with you comment about AIDS and contraception. I don't believe that HIV is causing AIDS and therefore, condom use would limit it's spread. People in Africa are sick because their immune systems are compromised due to malnutrition, bad water and unsanitary conditions. There are people with "AIDS" but who don't have HIV.
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it
In the past men created witches: now they create mental patients.
Relinquish liberty for the purposes of defense in an emergency?
Why? It would seem that in an emergency, of all times, one needs
his greatest strength. So if liberty is strength and slavery is weakness,
liberty is a necessity rather than a luxury, and we can ill afford
to be without it—least of all during an emergency.
Interestingly enough, the Disability Discrimination Act (as amended) in Northern Ireland (and I think the UK) actively *excludes* those who present anti-social behaviour, personality disorder or a dual diagnosis (alcohol/ drug dependency), meaning there is no legal duty on Trusts to provide such clients with statutory care services.
For this client group, it would be better if the legislation did not exist, yet, ironically, it is meant to protect their rights, as disabled and vulnerable people.
Of course, if the appropriate care and support is in place for such clients, it is less likely that others in the community will experience anti-social behaviour as a result of the manifestation of their ill health/ substance misuse.
From my experience of working in the community, it is the voluntary sector that caters to this client group's complex needs, mostly unaided.
Interestingly enough, the Disability Discrimination Act (as amended) in Northern Ireland (and I think the UK) actively *excludes* those who present anti-social behaviour, personality disorder
I can tell you why that is with people who have personality disorders
Its because doping them doesn't work as it does say with manic depressives or schizophrenics.
The kind of treatment that people with personality disorders need is intensive therapy & that costs time & resources.