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Are all libertarians, by definition, "pro-choice"?
I was listening to an archive of The Tiny Political Show while hacking through some zombies playing Dead Rising 2 last night (who else but me listens to podcasts while playing video games? lol) and I heard Citizen X and Barry Hess say they were pro life libertarians. But, when you consider that libertarians are against prohibition of any kind, no matter what their personal views on abortion may be, wouldn't we be pro choice by defintion?
For the record, I'm very much pro choice. I have seen the effect of an unplanned pregnancy, and the aftermath of raising a child when you weren't ready and I wouldn't call that "life".
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Jackie Fiest
Chalk me up as another pro-life libertarian. Even when I was a stupid quasi-progressive, I always thought abortion was murder. Unfortunately, since most of the anti-abortion (I'm pro-life across the board) people are Christians, the issue has been framed as a religious one. Even if I weren't a Deist, I would still oppose abortion on philosophical grounds.
That being said, I don't have any idea how a stateless society would deal with the issue. I am certain that there would be a fraction of the abortions that currently go on now.
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it
Learned Hand
In the past men created witches: now they create mental patients.
Thomas Szasz
Relinquish liberty for the purposes of defense in an emergency?
Why? It would seem that in an emergency, of all times, one needs
his greatest strength. So if liberty is strength and slavery is weakness,
liberty is a necessity rather than a luxury, and we can ill afford
to be without it—least of all during an emergency.
F.A. Harper
For the record, I'm very much pro choice. I have seen the effect of an unplanned pregnancy, and the aftermath of raising a child when you weren't ready and I wouldn't call that "life".
Sorry. I didn't read your whole post. I don't think being pro-choice logically follows from seeing or experiencing the effects of a unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. In a case like that, the mother should give the child up for adoption.
In the same Walter Block article that you referenced before, there are a few links to his position on abortion. He draws the line at viability, which is constantly getting younger and younger due to technology.
So, if I wanted to have an abortion, you woud try to stop me through means of prohibition?
No. I way too much of a wuss to take you on. In all seriousness, I wouldn't. This is my dilemma. This is my hypocrisy. But then again, I probably wouldn't try to stop you if were going to commit any kind of crime. Please ask the same question to GG and Citizen X. Maybe their answers will make me look better.
Actually, I disagree with you on that, too. lol
I don't think saying, "I disagree with abortion, but wouldn't stop you from having one" makes you a hypocrite, I think it makes you a libertarian. Live and let live is what we are all about. It also goes back to my original question of "no matter how a libertarian may feel personally about abortion, doesn't the idea of anti-prohibition make them pro-choice on a political level", even if they are pro life personally. However Gard and Citizen X feel about aborton personally doesn't have an effect on me personally, but if they were to lobby to ban abortion, that would be a different story. Your idea of live and let live is a peaceful way of thinking that I wish was practiced by more people.
Did X and Hess take the same position as me or did they outline a way to stop abortions?
Actually, I disagree with you on that, too. lol
I don't think saying, "I disagree with abortion, but wouldn't stop you from having one" makes you a hypocrite, I think it makes you a libertarian. Live and let live is what we are all about.
Yeah. But I'm not happy about it!!! I don't just disagree with it. I think it is murder.
Do you support a woman's right to have an abortion right up until the end of the third trimester?
Yes. I don't want other people telling me what to do with my life, so I don't propose I'm any position to tell another woman what to do with hers. Despite my issues with organzied religon, I am a theist. I just don't like the way the larger heirarchy of religion is handled. I believe every woman should make her own decisions as she is the only one who will stand before God for them. Would I have an abortion at that point? No, I wouldn't. But, the difference is I would have had it much sooner.
And, as far as what Citizen X and Barry Hess said about it, if memory serves it wasn't a discussion about abortion specifically, but about being anti prohibition. But, maybe he will poke his head in and answer for himself.
Is there any point at which you think abortion is murder and can be legitimately dealt with by the law?
Is there any point at which you think abortion is murder and can't be legitimately dealt with by the law?
No, I think a woman should be able to have one at any time. There are a million reasons to have one. Maybe the doctor didnt' find out until late that the baby is severly retarded or maybe has some disease that it wouldn't live beyond birth anyway. The latter has happened to a woman I know. In that case, she should do whatever she thinks is best. And I certainly don't, under ANY circumstances think "the law" i.e. judges, attorneys and police should be involved in a womans reproductive decisions. Not ever. If adoption was such a wonderful option, we wouldn't have orphanages in the US and all over the world overflowing with unwanted children. That is a huge burden on society.
Also, accoring to the WHO, 529,000 women die every year in complications related to pregnancy and child birth. Just pregnancy is an incredibly tough thing to deal with. When my aunt Edie delieved my nephew Tyler, she had to have surgery right after delievery because the strain caused an organ in her lower body to rupture (sorry, don't remember which one). It's a huge undertaking and you literally do put your life on the line. Pregnancy doesn't always come from irresponsability in sex. Condoms break and rape happens. So, I say, keep it legal and let each woman make her own decisions.
Does the reason why the child is conceived have any bearing on whether it is human or not? And deserving of protection against aggression? How do you reconcile the current law whereby if a fetus is killed due to negligence or a crime against the mother, the perpetrator can be prosecuted? Or do you only believe a mother has a right to end a pregnancy?
I believe that, yes, the mother is the one who should make the decision to possibly end the pregnancy. Why? Because the mother is the only one who will be having the oxygen and nutrients sucked from her body in order to incubate the fetus. A man doesn't have to go through 9 months of having your nutrients and oxygen siphoned away from him. Having his back compressed causing pain as the fetus grows. The man doesn't go through morning sickness and putting on weight due to the increase in eating due to the fact that you have a fetus taking your nutrients away. I don't agree that a fetus is a life at conception because there is no way it can breathe and recieve nutrients without taking it from the mother. If the mother were to die at, say, 2 months of pregnancy, could the fetus make it? I find myself having to repeat the amount of women that die every year, 529,000, due to pregnancy and child birth. It's almost like it doesn't matter. That the fetus is more important than the woman. Does a woman deserve to have her oxygen and nutrients ripped from her body against her will? Does she deserve to be put in a condition where she could die? Espicially when she was raped or got pregnant due to a broken condom? Because it's a possibiltiy.
And, I do think it's different when a woman is attacked and loses the baby because it's a crime against her and the baby's father (assuming it's not the father that caused the loss). If a couple wants their baby, they lost something they wanted. Hence, they were violated against.
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